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Mcguffen - 3/2/2009 8:10:01 PM

Admin

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Mcguffen
(AKA:Mobball)

Teams Names:
Team A
Team B

Objective:
A loadstone with a dimensional anchor, is placed in the center of the map.
Two Hollows are placed on each side of the map each hollow belonging to the respected team.
The Objective is to get the loadstone into the opposion team's Hollow and hold it there for a round. After will time the Loadstone is instantly returned to the map's center.

Here's The Twist:
The loadstone is fragile, it has a hardness of 10 and 10 hit points. I can be destroyed. If it is destroyed it returns at the map's center.

Victory Conditions
The team who get the loadstore into the opposion team's Hollow and hold it there for a round the most often wins.

mnuimum team size/Maximum teams members:
2/3

Starting points
Standard

Match Lengths: 10 rounds, 15 rounds, 20 rounds

Variants
Variant: only one hollow. the teams are split into defenders and attackers
Variant:

< Message edited by Tazzelrik -- 3/5/2009 7:41:44 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Mcguffen - 3/2/2009 8:11:08 PM

Admin

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Thoughts?

(in reply to Admin)

Post #: 2

RE: Mcguffen - 3/5/2009 5:04:56 PM

Professorpain

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I think a variation with a randomly exploding loadstone would be lots of fun.

(in reply to Admin)

Post #: 3

RE: Mcguffen - 3/5/2009 7:41:10 PM

Tazzelrik

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Joined: 4/5/2008
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HA - HA - HA! This is a great idea.

I wonder if the PCs will be more upset that they took damage from the exploding load-stone or the fact that they have to now go back to get another one.

too funny.

Definitely chalk this up as a variant!

_____________________________

Tazzelrik.
------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams".

(in reply to Professorpain)

Post #: 4

RE: Mcguffen - 3/7/2009 10:48:16 AM

Gilgamesh

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Looks good to me. I like the exploding ball idea too.

(in reply to Tazzelrik)

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RE: Mcguffen - 4/8/2009 6:01:16 PM

Tazzelrik

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Joined: 4/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Professorpain

I think a variation with a randomly exploding loadstone would be lots of fun.

just a adjustment on damage. we had stated that it would be 6d6. but it needs to be a rolling scale. 1d6 per Battlepoints tier.

of course we will need to add tier to the battlepoint chart as well, but we knew that..

_____________________________

Tazzelrik.
------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams".

(in reply to Professorpain)

Post #: 6

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/20/2009 9:19:11 PM

Mike

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This post come from Nick(who participated in the last McGuffin Match)
Nick, great work on this and thanks for all the INPUT....Real cool man!!!!!

#1
Make sure you release each map/game addition with a Well fleshed out and easy to use DM - Screen. I would suggest starting one for yourself and adding to it over time that way you end up with a good finish of what comes up inside of PvP play experience more often than in a standard game. Based on the first gameplay session it should include:

Clear, concise rules on what you can do with the Capturable Stone thingy (What was it called again?) - How far you can throw it, how much it weighs, how it reduces your movement, can you swim with it, etc.
Shorthand rules on Combat in water, including how fire spells work.
Clear movement rules. Rough terrain, etc.
AC Modifiers table for cover/flanking etc.
Combat Manuevers Table for Grapple/Trip etc. and difficulties.
Stealth modifiers for various effects.
Ceiling Height/Special Effects/Other Attributes of Each Area on the map.

#2

The map is awesome! I love it, the only problem is that different areas are very hard to distinguish from one another. I feel that the map needs to be simplified a bit more and have the different sections clearly marked off through distinct color changes/walls just a bit more than is already there. Also each room and/or area needs an associated number.
Each number can be then listed back to the DM Screen to explain any special things with the room, such as overlooks, windows, pillars, special features etc. This can be passed around to players in case they need to know what each room has.

#3

Possibly toy around with the idea of a 'setup' period where the players may set traps, or other things based on extra resources or purchased trap kits placeable at certain squares. Or just allow each team a certain specific number of traps they can place anywhere on their side and relay their starting positions via paper to the DM.

#4

Have each team setup at the same time, then roll initiative to see who acts first. Instead of physically placing your markers at the start. Write down which square you want your character to start in, you can easily confer with your team before hand, and then hand them in to the DM. A time limit can be set, 1 minute or so. To get all placements done and ready. This keeps the pace of the game going and makes it fair since the enemy team will be busy doing the same thing. This eliminates one side gaining a huge advantage from seeing where the other team has placed their peices.

#5

Keep it equal. What I mean is, during the last session, the Wizard on the team opposing me was 1 level higher than all other characters, on top of having nearly as many or more hitpoints than the other characters. Having a Wizard casting 4th level spells in a mostly 6th level game will have a tendency to be unbalanced unless each team is using one. If you don't believe me there is a long list of arguments on the wizards forums about degrees of power between the casting classes and such. E6/E8 are very good examples of this and sucking up to 4th level spells will influence the game balance significantly. I do realize this is pathfinder and they are attempting to fix the power gap, but it is still there.. spells are still very powerful compared to your other classes.

Thanks for including me in this wonderful play test and I hope to play with you guys in the future!

PS: Any chance of getting a PDF of the rules so far so I can start running this at home?

- Nick

< Message edited by Tazzelrik -- 7/21/2009 3:57:12 PM >

(in reply to Tazzelrik)

Post #: 7

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/21/2009 1:54:44 PM

Geo

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I like the exploding lodestone idea a lot. I would suggest this variant:

The lodestone no longer encumbers the player. However, if the lodestone is broken, it explodes violently, dealing the aforementioned damage to all players within a 10 foot radius, no reflex save for the holder. Sub variants of the exploding lodestone could include fire, ice, electric or even random energy explosions, to reward/foil players who make use of spells such as Protection from Energy.

Other thoughts include coming up with rules concerning player death. I've noticed in a lot of McGuffin matches that the ball only influences where the players wind up facing off and not how the game is played. Maybe this could be solved by map variants. McGuffin seems more akin to a sport than urban combat, so why not come up with a map closer to an arena? Add obstacles like small walls for rogues to sneak behind, spikes or blade traps, and columns to obstruct line of sight, but keep the arena open enough to improve mobility and add player incentive to actually score. When PCs find themselves easily blocked off they are discouraged from playing the game and settle for wholesale slaughter instead.

This could be expanded upon by giving each team freedom to set up their side of the court as they please. Say each team gets a set number of low walls, columns, traps and what have you to do as they please with. This could encourage more offensive play since teams would have some control over the space their opponents must navigate. Obstacles could include anything from hidden pits to difficult terrain to walls that need to be jumped over. Think American Gladiator with more blood.

Another rule variant might be to allow the player to drop the McGuffin into the hollow and leave it there. The McGuffin will score for each consecutive round it remains inside, forcing the other team into a defensive position. I think this might improve the back and forth nature of the game, since scoring would also mean handing the McGuffin off to the other team.

Also, let's clarify rules concerning the McGuffin. Does it take two hands to hold? Can a small character carry it? Can you put it in your backpack or do you have to have at least one hand on the ball at all times in order to move with it? Can you pass it to another player? Can you Sleight of Hand it? Does it resist or is it vulnerable to certain types of energy? Can a wizard carry it with Tenser's Floating Disc or an Unseen Servant? These are all important factors that will affect playing style.

In response to Nick, I agree that the 7th level wizard was a powerhouse. I'll take responsibility for this one since I made the characters for that match. In retrospect, though, the wizard was also the first to die at our Friday game. I realised as I was creating the characters that Paizo did a good job of balancing when players get crucial powers. It seems the 6th/7th level change is when PCs start to get the good stuff (Wizards get 4th level magic, Barbarians get their damage reduction, everyone gets another feat, etc...) so choosing that divide for the levels might have been a mistake. I think that the match would have gone differently had the sniper targeted the wizard with some of his high damage feats, though, so there's something to be said for playing style as well.

All in all, I'm very pleased with the way Pathfinder is working to solve some of the problems we've encountered under 3.5. The PCs are very well balanced, the advanced feat progression gives melee and combat classes far more versatility when dealing with casters, and the extra HP boost makes everyone just a bit more durable without unnecessarily prolonging combat. We may not need much more tweaking to balance out the system combat wise. Really, our only untested ground so far is the magic items and clerics.

Hope this post adds some more food for thought. Let me know what you guys think.

-Geo

(in reply to Mike)

Post #: 8

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/22/2009 7:11:51 PM

Tazzelrik

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quote:

Make sure you release each map/game addition with a Well fleshed out and easy to use DM - Screen

I think this is a great idea and we will create this as a third phase of the product.

Each map will come along with a greater details page a large sheet of details regarding the physical map. This will also be printable from this website.

quote:

Clear, concise rules on what you can do with the Capturable Stone thingy (What was it called again?) - How far you can throw it, how much it weighs, how it reduces your movement, can you swim with it, etc.

Each of this things are in the books with the exception of how far it can be thrown. > I am asking someone here to research how far a round 51 pound smooth stone can be thrown.

quote:

Shorthand rules on Combat in water, including how fire spells work.

Short hand reminder on combat in water is a good idea.
Fire spell players will need to used the OGL for that

quote:

Clear movement rules. Rough terrain, etc.

Will be indicated on the map

quote:

AC Modifiers table for cover/flanking etc.

on the map details

quote:

Will be indicated on the map
Combat Maneuvers Table for Grapple/Trip etc. and difficulties.

OGL will be the source for this.

quote:

Stealth modifiers for various effects.
Ceiling Height/Special Effects/Other Attributes of Each Area on the map.

Will be indicated on the map details

< Message edited by Tazzelrik -- 7/22/2009 8:01:34 PM >

_____________________________

Tazzelrik.
------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams".

(in reply to Geo)

Post #: 9

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/22/2009 7:53:41 PM

Tazzelrik

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Joined: 4/5/2008
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Point #2 is address and noted here

quote:

#3
Possibly toy around with the idea of a 'setup' period where the players may set traps, or other things based on extra resources or purchased trap kits placeable at certain squares. Or just allow each team a certain specific number of traps they can place anywhere on their side and relay their starting positions via paper to the DM.

This has be address thur Map Elements.

_____________________________

Tazzelrik.
------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams".

(in reply to Tazzelrik)

Post #: 10

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/22/2009 8:00:55 PM

Tazzelrik

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Joined: 4/5/2008
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quote:

Have each team setup at the same time, then roll initiative to see who acts first. Instead of physically placing your markers at the start.

I disagree with this one, folks who don't go first have the advantage of see the where his opponent is prior to acting this is unfair.
we currently do both using team initiative and normal initiative.

quote:

#4
Write down which square you want your character to start in, you can easily confer with your team before hand, and then hand them in to the DM. A time limit can be set, 1 minute or so. To get all placements done and ready. This keeps the pace of the game going and makes it fair since the enemy team will be busy doing the same thing. This eliminates one side gaining a huge advantage from seeing where the other team has placed their peices

.

This a great concept. We should change it so that your starting location is on the passcard and the mini is "revealed" during your initiative turn. -- I like this one alot.

quote:

#5
Keep it equal. What I mean is, during the last session, the Wizard on the team opposing me was 1 level higher than all other characters, on top of having nearly as many or more hitpoints than the other characters. Having a Wizard casting 4th level spells in a mostly 6th level game will have a tendency to be unbalanced unless each team is using one. If you don't believe me there is a long list of arguments on the wizards forums about degrees of power between the casting classes and such. E6/E8 are very good examples of this and sucking up to 4th level spells will influence the game balance significantly. I do realize this is pathfinder and they are attempting to fix the power gap, but it is still there.. spells are still very powerful compared to your other classes.

the battlepoints system should handle this.

_____________________________

Tazzelrik.
------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams".

(in reply to Tazzelrik)

Post #: 11

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/22/2009 8:17:47 PM

Tazzelrik

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Joined: 4/5/2008
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quote:

Sub variants of the exploding lodestone could include fire, ice, electric or even random energy explosions, to reward/foil players who make use of spells such as Protection from Energy.

this need to be added to the mcguffen variant

(from the core rule book)
The Great McGuffin
This perfectly circular stone appears to be dark and smoothly polished. The size is about that of a large grapefruit and weighs 51 pounds. It reduces movement of all types to one-half of the possessor’s normal speed. The McGuffin may be discarded normally without any lingering effects. However, when possessed, the holder is covered in a shimmering emerald field that blocks all extra-dimensional travel. This dimensional anchor effect prohibits the following: Astral Projection, Blink, Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, Gate, Maze, Planar Shift, Shadow Walk, Teleport, Teleportation Circle and similar spell-like/psionic/class/racial abilities. It does not interfere with things that are already in ethereal or astral form before the Dimensional Anchor was triggered.
In addition, the possessor of the McGuffin is outlined in a shimmering emerald field and does not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness, blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects. The light is too dim to have any special effect on undead or dark-dwelling creatures vulnerable to light. The McGuffin has Hardness 10 and Hit Points 10.

quote:

Does it take two hands to hold?

it's 51 pounds, large grapefruit , how would you dm that?

quote:

Can a small character carry it?

yes,it's 51 pounds, large grapefruit

quote:

Can you put it in your backpack or do you have to have at least one hand on the ball at all times in order to move with it?

why, would you need that ?

quote:

Can you pass it to another player?

yep.

quote:

Can you Sleight of Hand it?

it's 51 pounds, large grapefruit , how would you dm that? I say DC = 31 or up Thoughts?

quote:

Does it resist or is it vulnerable to certain types of energy?

no it very fragile.

quote:

Can a wizard carry it with Tenser's Floating Disc or an Unseen Servant?

51 pounds...

< Message edited by Tazzelrik -- 7/22/2009 8:31:35 PM >

_____________________________

Tazzelrik.
------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams".

(in reply to Geo)

Post #: 12

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/23/2009 7:52:36 PM

Sleaker

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Joined: 6/30/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazzelrik

quote:

Have each team setup at the same time, then roll initiative to see who acts first. Instead of physically placing your markers at the start.

I disagree with this one, folks who don't go first have the advantage of see the where his opponent is prior to acting this is unfair.
we currently do both using team initiative and normal initiative.

quote:

#4
Write down which square you want your character to start in, you can easily confer with your team before hand, and then hand them in to the DM. A time limit can be set, 1 minute or so. To get all placements done and ready. This keeps the pace of the game going and makes it fair since the enemy team will be busy doing the same thing. This eliminates one side gaining a huge advantage from seeing where the other team has placed their peices
.

This a great concept. We should change it so that your starting location is on the passcard and the mini is "revealed" during your initiative turn. -- I like this one alot.

My intention was for these to be used in conjuction, not seperate, I guess I didn't make much sense there :)

(in reply to Tazzelrik)

Post #: 13

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/23/2009 8:11:36 PM

Sleaker

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Was perusing through the Spell list, and I'm not completely sure how you are handling Allowed spells or anything like that, but these ones seem like they would be particularly effective in this match setting for a 6th level wizard. Have we had any chance to test these yet?

1st Level Spells That Seem Really Good:
Grease (Targeted on the McGuffin), Charm Person, Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement
Unseen Servant can drag up to 100 pnds. Has this been toyed with?

2nd Level Spells:
Glitterdust, Web, Daze Monster, Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy, Levitate (On the McGuffin?)

3rd Level Spells:
Hold Person, Deep Slumber, Invisibility Sphere, Ray of Exhaustion

(in reply to Sleaker)

Post #: 14

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/26/2009 4:55:50 PM

Geo

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Deep Slumber was tested in a previous play session, it's a bitch when it works.

Unseen Servants are interesting but I just looked up the ruling on those and they seem impractical. If they move outside the range of the spell (25 ft + 5/two levels) or take more than 6 points of area effect damage they dissipate, and with a STR of 2, stealing it from the Servant likely won't be an issue.

Grease should definitely be looked at. Spells cast on the McGuffin are particularly sneaky and nasty, especially Shatter.

Used Charm Person and Suggestion in similar match types. The ruling was that if you can pull such spells off in combat they are extremely effective, allowing a player to trick their opponents into the wrong hollow.

Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion was used in a previous game, no disallows on that. Since the McGuffin is a big encumbrance, I'd say the Ray would modify a character's max load and might very well incur penalties.

All other spells on the list, as I know, dont have any known issues.

-Geo

(in reply to Sleaker)

Post #: 15

RE: Mcguffen(NICK REMARKS) - 7/26/2009 10:17:09 PM

Tazzelrik

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one thing to add, Dispel magic is the counter to all of these spells and should be a stable ability of each team.

_____________________________

Tazzelrik.
------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams".

(in reply to Geo)

Post #: 16

RE: Mcguffen - 4/5/2010 4:17:04 PM

Marko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazzelrik

HA - HA - HA! This is a great idea.

I wonder if the PCs will be more upset that they took damage from the exploding load-stone or the fact that they have to now go back to get another one.

too funny.

Definitely chalk this up as a variant!

Perhaps while also exploding randomly, it explodes each time it reaches a hallow and someone gains a point?

(in reply to Tazzelrik)

Post #: 17

RE: Mcguffen - 6/20/2010 8:52:02 PM

groetek

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random idea with exploding McGuffen maybe some pyrotechnics ?

also can summoned monsters carry McGuffen ?
and can it be carried on PC person while riding say a phantasmal steed?

(in reply to Marko)

Post #: 18